Question About Attacks

Discuss the translation of Eien no Aselia - Kono Daichi no Hate de.
KholdStare88
Posts: 30
Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2010 6:03 pm

Question About Attacks

Postby KholdStare88 » Thu Dec 02, 2010 5:42 am

I've always wondered this for a while, but can attacks that lower defense/element take effect during that same attack? For example, Fire Enchant has def down/red down but only one action, so I'm hoping the def down/red down occurs before actually dealing damage. Another thing is that even though an attack has one action, it can have multiple "swings." For example, Heaven's Sword can have one action but it consists of four swings. In this case, does the blue down apply before all four swings or is it one swing, blue down, then three remaining swings?

It's a curiosity. :D

Alcion
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2010 1:31 am

Re: Question About Attacks

Postby Alcion » Fri Dec 03, 2010 3:56 am

I believe that yes, different skills with stats down or up can stack. In the case of one skill having multiple hits though, you may notice that each hit does the same damage, so no, the stat change is not applied on each swing, but at the end after the attack is over.

persocom01
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 11:39 am

Re: Question About Attacks

Postby persocom01 » Fri Dec 03, 2010 11:50 am

I believe the modifier takes effect before you deal damage. Multi-hit skills are purely cosmetic as far as I know. They deal the same damage per hit simply because that's the total damage divided by the number of hits. So you may think that heaven's sword has 4 hits, but it's actually 1 hit divided into 4 parts. You may think otherwise because you tend to find yourself dealing damage way above that stated in the skill. However, that is normally because your attack rating is higher than an opponent's defense rating.

KholdStare88
Posts: 30
Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2010 6:03 pm

Re: Question About Attacks

Postby KholdStare88 » Fri Dec 03, 2010 6:38 pm

After looking reeeeeeeeeeally close at the battle animation (I usually Ctrl through them lol), I notice that the "X down" message comes just before the first swing, so I believe it does apply before the damage is dealt. Thinking about it, how else would Fire Enchant do roughly the same damage as Triple Swing II?

Also, Nimnthor rocks at KK. I wasn't expecting her at level 21 to take absolutely no damage from a level 24 bluespirit's HS II. None, not even a single scratch.

persocom01
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 11:39 am

Re: Question About Attacks

Postby persocom01 » Fri Dec 03, 2010 6:58 pm

nimnthor has high defence rating and a resist rating higher than esperia, making her better at blocking elemental attacks than esperia. This probably also makes her the best non-eternal/etranger defender. However, even then I doubt she can take a hit from heaven's sword + silent field. I may have used passion on esperia, but even esperia's high eternal form using the 9999 block skill "absolute" almost died taking 2 hits of heaven's sword with silent field on. Also of note is a particular city in sargios with a +60% blue element modifier. Since no one in my team could take a single hit from that heaven's sword at that time, I had to rely on revive to win that battle in ss timing.

KholdStare88
Posts: 30
Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2010 6:03 pm

Re: Question About Attacks

Postby KholdStare88 » Fri Dec 03, 2010 9:27 pm

Ah, the capital is +60 Blue (I just checked). Interestingly, my level 22 Esperia survived the HS with 357 HP left and I had no one with the still Revive yet. I suspect you brought Nim to 22 instead where I kept her at 21 only. My level 21 Nim could not survive that HS. What I learned is that the elemental extra damage depends on the physical damage, so if you bring Esperia's defense up high enough, the physical damage will be so low that the extra elemental damage (which is a percentage of physical) will also be low. Nim is definitely the best all-around defender though, because you don't always have a bluespirit as support. Several things can destroy Esperia even if her defense is very high: Flame Laser alone is one, and Ether Sink + Heaven's Sword. Nim can shrug off Flame Laser like a pro (at least her KK version, because I recall she had 40 Res at level 19).

persocom01
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 11:39 am

Re: Question About Attacks

Postby persocom01 » Sat Dec 04, 2010 8:49 am

on normal difficulty, the difference between esperia and nimnthor isn't as pronounced as at higher difficulties. Esperia's defence maxes out at 500%, so does nimnthor, but esperia's resistance is stunted at somewhere around 60%, while nimnthor's resistance exceeds 250% at only level 80. To give you an idea what the difference is, esperia may immediately die when her spell is banished by a blue spirit on very hard difficulty (ice banish becomes somewhat of a killer spell in very hard). That's how poor her resistance is. Moreover, in very hard difficulty, meeting a blue spirit with an attack rating of 500% is not uncommon. Thus it's quite impossible to always out physical defence a silent field + heaven sword just using esperia's normal blocks.

esperia also has the annoying trait of having very few ways to recover her mind. This is a pity since her attack skills and elemental blast are pretty useful, and have many uses. Aselia has only 1 elemental attack at max level, heaven's sword 2600, and it has only 2 uses. Esperia on the other had has sonic strike 1500, with 12 uses, which is very useful when you're trying to beat the ss timing deadline and cannot spare turns to resupply. Be wary of replacing her level 28 accurate block 1000 with devoted blocks, which recover no mind. I left accurate block 1000 even at max level for this purpose.

on having to use revive to survive a +60% blue element heaven's sword, I don't quite remember exactly why I had to do that, but it probably had to do with my team not being at full life and me being a little desperate to meet the ss timing deadline. When I first encountered it I was surprised none of my team could survive it (even if they were between 50% to 75% health), which is why I remembered that incident.
Last edited by persocom01 on Sat Dec 04, 2010 8:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

Lynx190
Posts: 21
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2010 1:03 am

Re: Question About Attacks

Postby Lynx190 » Sat Dec 04, 2010 8:57 am

I'm pretty sure that the stat downs apply before the damage, and that's why Orpha's Ignition does such massive damage; also Kyouko's and Uruka's attacks that lower defense/resist do the same damage on each attack rather than lower damage on just the first attack

persocom01 wrote:However, even then I doubt she can take a hit from heaven's sword + silent field.


My first playthrough of Super Hard (3rd playthrough overall, so no excess leveling), I wasn't able to get to Mieyu fast enough in mission 16 after triggering the new squads to spawn, and wound up having to fight 3 squads in the city instead of 2 with my squad of Yuuto, Nim, and Nelie. By the end of it, Yuuto was completely out of attacks and aura photon nova, Nim was out of Lightning Strike IIIs and Elemental Blast, and Nelie was out of Leap Attacks and Impulse Blows. And the next squad was moving into Mieyu that turn without me getting a chance to heal up, putting me in danger of auto-losing a battle to stalemate if I ran out of attacks. The enemy squad had a HS IV attacker and a Silent Field II supporter, so instead of banishing the SFII I decided to pray that Nim could survive, and set Nelie as attacker, Nim defender, and Yuuto supporter (with Passion II, intending to try Holy next if it didn't work out). On top of the SFII, Mieyu already has a large blue bonus, but it also has 15% defense.

Nelie proceeded to obliterate the enemy squad with HS V for 75k damage to each spirit, and Nim barely survived the enemy HS IV even with the Passion debuffs. Nelie did such massive overkill that I could have easily used Holy instead if Nim had died, but I didn't have to reload as it was.

On my first playthrough though I usually relied on Halion for handling HS and eating unbanished nukes, due to her massive HP and highest resist of the green spirits pre-KK. At the very end of normal IIRC the enemies start moving up to Leap Attack III which makes them easier than the HS II you constantly had to deal with slightly before the end, and anyone can handle it. And yeah I kept Accurate Block VIII on Esperia forever, although I ended up mainly relying on Gaia Bless (two casts for +1 each) and towns/crystals for mind recovery

persocom01
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 11:39 am

Re: Question About Attacks

Postby persocom01 » Sat Dec 04, 2010 9:06 am

I'm sorry if it wasn't very clear, but by saying "not being able to take a hit" I meant being able to more or less completely block heaven's sword + silent field. This was in response to:

KholdStare88 wrote:Also, Nimnthor rocks at KK. I wasn't expecting her at level 21 to take absolutely no damage from a level 24 bluespirit's HS II. None, not even a single scratch.


I apologize if my mentioning of high eternal esperia almost dying (she wasn't max level) to heaven's sword made you think heaven's sword will surely kill a spirit, but at level 99 with about 60k life you will probably survive heaven's sword + silent field, although I rather doubt you can take it relatively unscathed, unless possibly if you built 4 level 4 towers while defending a city or something. Towers are great :)

I took revive, cure, and elemental blast as my last support skills with esperia. Cure always triggers for +1 mind even if you kill the enemy in 1 hit, unlike divine magic earth prayer, and I kept revive for situations such as when I use orpha as defender. (cruel cruel me) I was a little tempted to use angel prayer when she got to eternal, but I can hardly think of situations when I really need a 100%, 2 action divine magic heal for -1 mind per cast.
Last edited by persocom01 on Sun Dec 05, 2010 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Alcion
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2010 1:31 am

Re: Question About Attacks

Postby Alcion » Sat Dec 04, 2010 7:02 pm

On the topic of Heavens Sword + Silent Field, yesterday I had a fight against a group with that combo. Now normall, since my Yuuto is level 99, he can just take the hit. However, for some unknown reason I decided to up the ante and see how much of an overkill I could go for. I had Nelie cast Silent Field II as well, Yuuto as my defender, and Uruka with Starfire sword. It wasnt in a town, and I cant remember the blue spirit modifier, but i doubt any higher than 10% positive or negative.

The results were pretty hilarious. The two blue spirits cast their silent field, then their blue spirit massively overkilled Yuuto with the first heaven's sword. Uruka overkills their defender, heaven's sword massively overkills Nelie, then Uruka overkills their supporter, then attacker. Uruka lived only because they had only two uses on heaven's sword. Oh well, I saved just two turns ago, so it was funny to see.


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