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Re: Seinarukana

Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 8:15 am
by exerron
iamin7ove wrote:but somehow, natural english sounds less emotional =o= and sometimes less interesting
which is something rather fatal in literacy =o=
Well...what naast said is true, and nothing is more wrong than literal translation (it's rather funny, of course, but only if you don't care about the original meaning). However, even though you cannot translate literally, you can't take too much liberty either. When possible, it's best to stick to the original words/structure/etc. and make only the slightest changes, while making sure, that it actually sounds natural in the language you translate into. I guess this is very hard with japanese, although I don't know the language too well.
Anyway, translating something seriously takes much more effort than it might seem.

Re: Seinarukana

Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 10:57 am
by iamin7ove
exerron wrote:
iamin7ove wrote:but somehow, natural english sounds less emotional =o= and sometimes less interesting
which is something rather fatal in literacy =o=
Well...what naast said is true, and nothing is more wrong than literal translation (it's rather funny, of course, but only if you don't care about the original meaning). However, even though you cannot translate literally, you can't take too much liberty either. When possible, it's best to stick to the original words/structure/etc. and make only the slightest changes, while making sure, that it actually sounds natural in the language you translate into. I guess this is very hard with japanese, although I don't know the language too well.
Anyway, translating something seriously takes much more effort than it might seem.


But really, dont u think that only the narration should be that way ?
It's really not nice ...
to hear a someone say something yet see different words in the subtitle ...

Re: Seinarukana

Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 5:56 pm
by DarkMaster
just use google translate then. that what it does, translate every word on its own while skipping the Understanding stage.
i'll be surprised if you'll like the translation.

Re: Seinarukana

Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 6:40 pm
by iamin7ove
Mah, u say so but how about giving an example ?

Re: Seinarukana

Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 11:03 pm
by DarkMaster
example of what?
what i'm saying that literal translation is bad, even an machine can do it.
if you think its good use google translate or any other translating program and you wouldn't have to wait for translation.
i myself think translation should carry the texts original meaning, not the original words.

lets say a char makes a pun or an adage in japanese, to my opinion a good translator should try finding an adage in english with similar meaning
even if it talks about apples instead of oranges or something.

for example in my language there is a adage which literally translates to "no bear nor a forest" i'm pretty sure theres no adage like this in english and so you probably have no clue what is it means. a good translator will find adage in english that describe the same thing.. even without bears.
i dunno about adages in english that mean never existed/total lie, so i can't finish my example but i think you got my point.

Re: Seinarukana

Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 11:26 pm
by iamin7ove
"
just use google translate then. that what it does, translate every word on its own while skipping the Understanding stage.
i'll be surprised if you'll like the translation."

The only thing that bother me when using google or other translation to translate japanese is that the sentences are fragmented and dont even form a sentence to begin with. (there are even words that can't be translated, wonder why)
But u said to skip the understanding stage right ? Which means i can at least form it into sentence but only without editing.
I dont actually see any difference about that :\...
so i wanted to ask you to give me an example of a sentence that can't sastified me after that kind of translation
(translate every word on its own while skipping the Understanding stage).

Btw, to remind you, my type of translation meaning
Step 1 : Translate
Step 2 : Form into meaningFUL sentences WITHOUT changing any words' meaning..
I did give an example right ?
For example a line from nozomi :

I translate to :
"…Ah, Nozomu-chan!? Are u hurt ? Do you feel bad anywhere ?" (down to every word is '…Ah, Nozomu-chan!? Does your body hurt ? Do you feel bad anywhere ?" but that sounds lame so lets go with "are u hurt" )
While, Nighteye translate to :
“…Ah, Nozomu-chan!? Are you hurt, is anything wrong?”

Even though difference is small, there is a difference alright

Also, just so you know, there is line called "Reality and what you what reality is are completely two different thing"

Re: Seinarukana

Posted: Fri May 07, 2010 11:10 am
by DarkMaster
you yourself gave an example to yourself, the sentence literally translates to "Does your body hurt " but for the sake of making it look better in english you turn it to " Are u hurt" Nighteye made the same thing by turning "Do you feel bad anywhere" to the more natural "is anything wrong"

btw never happed to me that google translate didn't know a word. if your happy with that kind of translation try using it and you'll understand why literal translation is wrong.

Re: Seinarukana

Posted: Fri May 07, 2010 11:39 am
by iamin7ove
"Does your body hurt " -> "Are u hurt" : is but parallel translation , meanings of the words are still kept close (and i havent even mentioned that some japanese words might means two things same time) . This is but the process of forming fragments into meaningful sentence, NOT localizing
"Do you feel bad anywhere" -> "is anything wrong" : changed structure, only barely kept meaning and just so you know, read it again and u see him combine 2 questions into 1
If ur thiking thats im using the example to go againts what i said in the beginning then think again.
Im not saying forming japanese words into meaningful sentences in english is wrong but im saying localizing (change sentences' structures)and loose translation (something like "Do you feel bad anywhere" -> "is anything wrong" )


Btw, if u want an example of something google can't translate then
Shinken ->[KamiTsurugi] (i dont know why but this is what i got).Meaning is same but im not sure if someone that dont know japanese understnad.
Nandeyo ("why" in japanese)-> [Nandaiyo] - again, all it did is tranlsating into roman alphabet (something else i got by chance while tranlsating whole sentence)


Man, if you think that im just someone inexperienced in J-E translation then, sorry.Let me remind you that I have never learned Japanese but thanks the my experience in seeing translations and subtitles in game and anime alone, i can say that i understand general conversations and even grammar-how to form sentences and stuffs. (though i probbably wont be able to undestand jargon, difficult and specialized stuffs but again, even few japanese have problems with that).
=> Which means about the only things i lack now are vocalbulary and ofc again, understanding of raw texts (im leveled to listening ONLY)
Isn't that proof of how many type of translations and how long i have been into this yet ?

Re: Seinarukana

Posted: Sun May 09, 2010 2:39 am
by naast
It's not about knowing japanese, but knowing about how to translate. Some people think that translation is a science in itself. It really isn't something as simple as it looks. And if a litteral translation is good, we wouldn't need 5 years of studies to become a professional translator.

And actually, sorry but "seeing" translations and subtitles in games and anime (especially anime) doesn't give you any experience with translation. And most of the time, you read some crappy translation made by amateurs. Don't get me wrong, there are some good amateur translators out there, and I really enjoyed Dakkodango's translation of EnA, but most of the amateur translations have nothing in common with professional translations (well, there are some seriously crappy professional translations too...). You don't get experience by seeing something, but by doing it. I mean, I used to watch 4 hours of anime a day (on school days), but that didn't make me a better translator. I got better by translating stuff.

A translation HAS TO give the reader the feeling that he reads something written in his language. It CAN'T keep traces of the original language. When you read a professional translation of a book, if you don't know where it comes from, you can't guess where it comes from.
Well...what naast said is true, and nothing is more wrong than literal translation (it's rather funny, of course, but only if you don't care about the original meaning). However, even though you cannot translate literally, you can't take too much liberty either. When possible, it's best to stick to the original words/structure/etc. and make only the slightest changes, while making sure, that it actually sounds natural in the language you translate into. I guess this is very hard with japanese, although I don't know the language too well.
Anyway, translating something seriously takes much more effort than it might seem.
Yeah, it's really hard with japanese, because the grammar and vocabulary has nothing in common with occidental languages. And indeed there are times when it's really important to keep certain key words in some sentences, but the structure isn't really important.
Shinken ->[KamiTsurugi] (i dont know why but this is what i got).Meaning is same but im not sure if someone that dont know japanese understnad.
That's just because google misread the kanjis, because it didn't know the word (and actually, it doesn't exist). So it wrote kami (other reading of shin 神) tsurugi (other reading of ken 剣)

And anyway, I prefer a localized translation to a translation that really sticks to the original, because when I read anything, be it a game or an anime's subtitle, I want to have a feeling that I read something written in my language. The reader doesn't care about the original structure.
I'm currently reading a VN in japanese so I may post some examples of translation some times.

PS: Sorry about the poor english in this post, it's 4:38 am here, and I'm was about to go to bed when I started writing this ^^'

Re: Seinarukana

Posted: Sun May 09, 2010 6:50 am
by iamin7ove
naast wrote:And actually, sorry but "seeing" translations and subtitles in games and anime (especially anime) doesn't give you any experience with translation. And most of the time, you read some crappy translation made by amateurs. Don't get me wrong, there are some good amateur translators out there, and I really enjoyed Dakkodango's translation of EnA, but most of the amateur translations have nothing in common with professional translations (well, there are some seriously crappy professional translations too...). You don't get experience by seeing something, but by doing it. I mean, I used to watch 4 hours of anime a day (on school days), but that didn't make me a better translator. I got better by translating stuff.
How about seeing many many many different translations of one same words ?
Seeing something won't gain experience but surely, seeing something many many times that it got imprinted into your mind is good enough right?
Excuse me but, animes is not just about watching the animation, the sub and listening to the voices just for the prettiness of it to me. Its also about translating each and everywrods then use grammar to stick them into lines on the spot to me =o=.
naast wrote:It's not about knowing japanese, but knowing about how to translate. Some people think that translation is a science in itself. It really isn't something as simple as it looks. And if a litteral translation is good, we wouldn't need 5 years of studies to become a professional translator.
Which is why i mentioned that i somehow tried and kinda figured out how japanese's grammar works. And btw, my grammar in english is good enough, also. Im an international student (Im a vietnamese) , after all. (i hear native speakers are actually bad at grammar more)
naast wrote:A translation HAS TO give the reader the feeling that he reads something written in his language. It CAN'T keep traces of the original language. When you read a professional translation of a book, if you don't know where it comes from, you can't guess where it comes from.
Shinken ->[KamiTsurugi] (i dont know why but this is what i got).Meaning is same but im not sure if someone that dont know japanese understnad.
That's just because google misread the kanjis, because it didn't know the word (and actually, it doesn't exist). So it wrote kami (other reading of shin 神) tsurugi (other reading of ken 剣)

And anyway, I prefer a localized translation to a translation that really sticks to the original, because when I read anything, be it a game or an anime's subtitle, I want to have a feeling that I read something written in my language. The reader doesn't care about the original structure.
I'm currently reading a VN in japanese so I may post some examples of translation some times.[/quote]

About the google stuff, i know that. I only pointed it out to the guy who said that google can translate EVERY WORDS correctly.

I wont say ur wrong but, personally i hate this way of thinking. It's basically means after the translation, everything that is left are but the plots. The author's way of writing will not be known to the readers.
If thats what it means by professional translating then i guess i know why there are people saying "Romeo and Juliet" is a story from another author and the fact that we didnt know about that is because it was adjusted to fit into another culture.
Basically its like creating parallel piece of work already... (->"now we have two stories which share same main plots ^_^ and they looks like they are written by 2 different author completely"...That doesnt sound too kind to the author...)
Had i wanted something written in my language, i wouldn't have read something that is originally written in another langauge. If one like how a story written in their language that much, why not just read one originally written in it ?...
Different cultures makes different type of masterpieces. If translating means turning all cultures into the one your in, just when will one be able to break out of the box called "country" or "culture" ?