Story Qs - Origin & Restraints on Spirits [MAJOR spoilers]

Discuss the translation of Eien no Aselia - Kono Daichi no Hate de.
myrtas
Posts: 38
Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2010 5:32 am

Story Qs - Origin & Restraints on Spirits [MAJOR spoilers]

Post by myrtas » Mon Apr 05, 2010 6:03 pm

I have several questions about the story. I've only completed the Aselia route but on my way with the others (dont have much free time). These points have come up during my playtime and which i think the game has failed to explain properly so far.

First What control's and restrains Spirits and Etrangers?

As we know, Yuoto fails to defy the old king several times and succumbs to pain, nausea .. etc If the cause was Desire, then how come he was able to defy him later on?

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As for the spirits, how come they are restrained ? who restrains them and what kind of magic is that? why cant they defy humans ? And later out of nowhere we read this !!

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What do they mean they were freed !!! What kind of restraint is that. Dont tell me originaly the eternals put the restraints ... :/



Second The nature and origin of spirtis

So, apparently they "pop out" from the sword of rebirth. WTH ??!!!! If they are born there, where are they born to? Do they grow up from from a baby ? Do they go to phases ? Where do humans find them? Whats the nature of those centres they grow up from ? Are they born in paris, with an eternal sword right by their side ? The word of rebirth gives birth to more swords ? i thought all swords were splinters from the original one .. lots of Qs

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What about this .. Nor more spirits. How old are spirits ? Do they age ? Being completly from mana, that could imply that they are immortals .. are they ?

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Third Read below ..

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So, his power was stolen from the beg. What does that imply ? That he was supposed to be stronger ? That Desire lost most of his powers ? If that Red spirit stole Desire's power, how come Aselia defeated her so easily ? Why would they want to steal his power ?

Also, whenever yuto kills a spirit, he gets their mana..right ? Then watsup with Desire lusitng for mana and acting like that yuto is not giving him any and not fulfilling the contract, even though thats not true.

On another note, Midway through the game (on Aselias route), takios and the short girl attack yuto and try REAL hard to kill him. Doesnt that defeat the purpose of them trying to unite the 4 swords to one ?? And then they follow hom to his world just to harras him ....



Fourth Eligibility of being an Eternal

What qualifies you to become an eternal ? Willpower? Desire ? Whim? Or just getting acknowledged by a lvl3 sword ?

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Ok, whats up with that ? He got a ticket ? How did he get it ? What happened ? Why was he qualified ? Why did she tell him that ? Was he always eligible and she just lied then and there ? If so, whats the point ?



Ok, this conludes this round of questions. If your going to respond, please answer intelligently and backup your theories/hypthesis with facts whenever possible. Took me a bit to create this and collect those captures.

:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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Phlebas
Dakkodango Staff
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Re: Story Qs - Origin & Restraints on Spirits [MAJOR spoiler

Post by Phlebas » Mon Apr 05, 2010 6:44 pm

I think most of your questions will be answered by just playing the game, but here are some hopefully concise answers based on our interpretation. Nice post btw :D.

1. He's not able to defy him directly at any point. Not sure what you're referring to. Presumably this restraint is placed on the Etrangers' swords and works something like 'consciously attempting to harm the royalty will inflict increasing pain etc on you proportionally to your intent' but the exact mechanism isn't explained. See the Malorigan 2nd playthrough scenes too.

I'm not sure if there's any 'real' restraint that keeps them from attacking humans, but there's a long process of indoctrination (see Esperia route, for instance). If there are blocks, again, they are placed on the swords (see what happens to Uruka's 'Restraint' and her actions in her route) and Eternals can easily lift them since they're something like a spell or an artificial mechanism.

2. You'll learn more about this on Orpha route for instance, but yes, they seem to be born/made together as a pair with their swords. They are manufactured artificially in Son Rim and then sent out to the world with probably deliberate plan to bolster countries' strength and cause strife (spirit warfare advances the Law Eternals' purpose). And they seem to be born as young ones (not babies though, fully functional), though it's possible some are older when they're found too.

Spirits seem to age pretty normally thought there's lack of info to draw valid comparison to Earth's humans (for that matter, this is true for Phantasmagoria's humans too). See Esperia route and the talks with subspirits. Esperia is about 22 and Aselia 21 Phantasmagoria years upon Yuuto's arrival (note that Phantasmagoria's year is shorter, in Earth years those should be 14-15 years - this info depends merely on the end-game chronology though and some of the dates seem a bit flimsy there so not too sure if they actually made the math heh). Their lifespan seems the same as humans'.

3. Just as it says in the shot there, yes 'Desire' was supposed to be stronger, he starts off very weak due to his lack of mana which drives him to try and control Yuuto and devour more mana. Being a higher rank sword 'Desire' has a will of its own, and in his best moments he appears a rather noble character, but his hunger for mana probably clouds his judgement too and reduces him to feral intellect, often he simply ceases all intelligent thought.

There's no real reason why they'd pay any special attention to Yuuto on Aselia route, let's just say it's bad luck. They may not intend to actually kill Yuuto (in fact they refrain from doing that in Hyperia, even though they easily could), but only to spoil his usefulness in the war. This part is a bit flimsy if you try to find their motivation though, it's true that it'd make more sense for them to keep him in good health until 'World' is born one way or another.

4. It is designated even before you are born. Yuuto has the potential to be an Eternal, even if he can't his potential will cause him to change the history - and others considerably (even to the point that he's able to shape others' fate so they may become Eternals). But he has to walk on his own feet to the stage where he can meet his potential and be acknowledged by a sword (the only way you actually become an Eternal). That's why tokimi doesn't put him into a cave until he some day becomes an Eternal.
Image Napolitan.... Rush!!

YamiLeto
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Re: Story Qs - Origin & Restraints on Spirits [MAJOR spoiler

Post by YamiLeto » Mon Apr 05, 2010 6:46 pm

Q: What control's and restrains Spirits and Etrangers?
A: Etrangers I get the feeling it's some side effect of the summons that bring them to the world but it's pure speculation. And also as for Yuuto breaking Desire's restraints.....remember he wasn't that strong in the begining. When he finally was able to deal with it the king was already dead so there was no need to test if it was Desire restraining him. The spirits on the other hand it's probably just the way they were raised. There have been many cases in real life showing kids to be trained to obey certain people while dealing with others (child soldiers and the such which is sad but true). The spirits are probably all about mental conditioning from young ages and tempered by a society that fully believes spirits should obey humans. As for the freeing of restraint on those spirits I can only assume it's probably Temuorin's magic messing with their desires to break the mentioned mental conditioning. After all Temuorin has shown the ability to see inner desires with Kotori so it's probably just a slightly stronger version.

Q: The nature and origin of spirits
A: Well it's not mentioned exactly how it happens but I suspect that since spirits are made up of mana the sword of rebirth gathers mana and forms it into the shape of a human with a certain Ryutoriam as a base (play Orpha's route if you want to know more about Ryutoriam). So in essence the whole processes sound a bit like cloning to me. Judging by different ages in the spirits plus it mentioned them growing up in a few routes I can assume spirits go through the normal human phases of growing up. They're probably created near the sword of rebirth then spread out by the eternals so that humans can use them for creating strife and all that. As for the sword of rebirth making all the swords......not sure but I suspect rebirth is just acting like the sword of origin that was mentioned before and just letting off slight splinters of itself which become the swords for spirits (thus why the swords are of low ranking).

Q: No more spirits?
A: It's mentioned in another route that spirits have genetics just like humans so I would assume the only difference is humans are made of matter while spirits are made of mana. Spirits are CLOSE to eternals being made of mana but otherwise they're basically human besides the ability to use eternity swords. And as for the none born I thought that was obvious since if rebirth was making them and it's gone then there is nothing to make anymore spirits. Though i'm sure Yuuto isn't thinking about actual breeding which ruin the idea of none being born anymore.

Q: on power being stolen...
A: Can't say I understand this one much either. It was never explained real well why desire's power would need to be weakened or where it went.

Q: Desire gains mana from defeated spirits so why does he act like Yuuto's not fulfilling his contract.
A: Desire is a power hungry bastard that believes Yuuto should be wasting every spirit in existence thus not killing his own comrades seems to go against desire's idea of the contract.

Q: Purpose of Temuorin and Takios showing up in Aselia's route?
A: They probably noticed Tokimi's interest in him and realized he'd probably become an eternal so it's probably just checking up on the enemy. As for why they left him alone....they didn't think he could get back to Phantasmagoria.

Q: Eligibility for eternal.
A: It's likely a very vague concept sadly. I suspect that it's from showing a strength of mind and character which Yuuto displays in his adventures by defying Desire's attempts at control and still feeling killing is wrong. Plus there is also the temporary mind wipe from Tokimi that might also have been a test since she mentioned that he was asking her as proof of his eligibility. I halfway suspect though it's on a recommendation basis so that eternals recruit potential eternals based on what they feel an eternal needs. However it does seem though that spirits always have this eligibility as long as they're strong enough. Yet again for unknown reasons.

myrtas
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Re: Story Qs - Origin & Restraints on Spirits [MAJOR spoiler

Post by myrtas » Mon Apr 05, 2010 8:26 pm

Thanks guys for your prompt reply. It sheds light on most of the questions. So, ill be going through the 2nd playthorugh and learn more. And interestingly, at the beginning they explain Shun's attachement to Koari.

Considiring the Spirit obedience, so there is no magical restraints ? Cause throughout the game i always get the impression that Spirits must obey humans (or only the royal family). So then, they were conditioned to that...hhmmm

Here another interesting point:
spirit revolt.PNG
spirit revolt.PNG (76.21 KiB) Viewed 9240 times
This heavily implies that spirits are capable of revolts..which means they could run away or defy orders ..
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YamiLeto
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Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2010 11:12 pm

Re: Story Qs - Origin & Restraints on Spirits [MAJOR spoiler

Post by YamiLeto » Tue Apr 06, 2010 12:06 am

myrtas wrote:Thanks guys for your prompt reply. It sheds light on most of the questions. So, ill be going through the 2nd playthorugh and learn more. And interestingly, at the beginning they explain Shun's attachement to Koari.

Considiring the Spirit obedience, so there is no magical restraints ? Cause throughout the game i always get the impression that Spirits must obey humans (or only the royal family). So then, they were conditioned to that...hhmmm

Here another interesting point:
spirit revolt.PNG
This heavily implies that spirits are capable of revolts..which means they could run away or defy orders ..
Oddly that further confirms that the restrictions are likely non-magical since magic is seen as absolute in that world so if they are capable of such a thing it's likely only to be mental conditioning done over time.

Tinbad
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Re: Story Qs - Origin & Restraints on Spirits [MAJOR spoiler

Post by Tinbad » Wed Apr 07, 2010 6:30 pm

Regarding the 'stealing' of Desire's power. They basically explain that whether it was by coincidence or design, there was that red spirit present when Yuuto was summoned. When he was stabbed, he felt his mana draining away, or in another sense, bleeding out. It was stated that Desire is a rank 4 eternity sword, which is quite powerful; Yuuto being attacked at the beginning was probably a plan by the Law Eternals in order to weaken or kill him, but Aselia interfered. Many other speculations can be made, but when it comes down to it, it was a ploy in order to lower the original level in order to create a starting point for the game. It really wouldn't have been very fun to play a lvl 50 Yuuto from the start.... would it?

Volandum
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Re: Story Qs - Origin & Restraints on Spirits [MAJOR spoiler

Post by Volandum » Wed Apr 07, 2010 7:27 pm

That would be pretty crazy, as he'd be stronger than the Lv35 default Tokimi.

YamiLeto
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Re: Story Qs - Origin & Restraints on Spirits [MAJOR spoiler

Post by YamiLeto » Wed Apr 07, 2010 9:26 pm

I've been wondering about this one myself for awhile and I'm wondering if I might know why...certainly in the storyline it shows that Desire gets weakened so the question is what is gained by this? My guess is the decision between Yuuto and Shun. The law eternals were looking for someone who would complete World and join them. So if we look at the situation doesn't it seem better for them to change the odds towards the mad man likely easier to be swallowed by his sword? Surely the law eternals saw Tokimi buzzing around Yuuto for so long they probably weakened Desire hoping it'd screw up whatever Tokimi might have planned. After all if Yuuto was more likely to side with the chaos eternals why would they want him to have a higher starting advantage over their own far more likely pick?

Muramasa
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Re: Story Qs - Origin & Restraints on Spirits [MAJOR spoiler

Post by Muramasa » Mon Apr 19, 2010 4:56 am

Perhaps weakening 'Desire' would also weaken 'Desire's' influence on Yuuto, preventing it from simply dominating his mind immediately? That would also give Yuuto the time needed to build his mental strength and defenses.

Xien
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Re: Story Qs - Origin & Restraints on Spirits [MAJOR spoiler

Post by Xien » Thu Apr 22, 2010 6:43 am

Well, it's not really about the Restraits placed, but here's something I noticed: *spoilers* I guess

You know how Rebirth itself was probably using up all that mana to produce Spirits? With that in mind, I wonder what Rebirth's actual goal on Phantasmagoria was. I mean, I understand that Temuorin's plan was to fill Rebirth up with Mana, then have World or another high rank Eternity Sword consume it, but the production of Spirits seems counter-productive to that goal. Really though, if they had control of Rebirth in the first place, couldn't they have just had it destroy the world, instead of this excessively complicated Xanatos Gambit that requires a minimum of around 200 years and is entirely dependent on just the right kind of person getting a sword with only a one in four chance of the guy you need actually being on your side? Goddammit. Also, what the hell was Tokimi doing during all of this? If she was around to give Idea to Orpha, she might've been around 3-5 years before any of the shit went down. Ether Technology and Spirits first appeared in St. Yoto 1, which was between one to three years before Tokimi acquired Prophecy and Finality. That's pretty much the precise point where Eternals got involved. Now, speaking in Phantasmagoria time... The game began in 330 St. Yoto. Orpha's stated to be probably around 10,000 years old. Even with Tokimi's retcon ability, how does that explain how 329 > 10,000~? Anyway, seriously though, if they just wanted to blow it up, it would've been more effective to introduce Ether technology, but not Spirits. That way, it's a genuine one-way converter with no way to pull the mana out of Rebirth without it exploding. Instead, they had Rebirth using the excess mana it gathers to produce Spirits, which in turn gathers up more mana to produce more Spirits. It's a relatively stable system overall, which continually escalates until, theoretically, everything is replaced by Spirits. So, yeah.

Anyway, here's what I want to know.

A. Since Rebirth's a Chaos Eternity Sword, was she brainwashed or something by the Law Eternals? I never quite caught the backstory behind the original Rebirth and Ruipha(?). Was she the original Ryutoriam and that Rebirth her sword?

B. Where does all the mana go to now? The planet?

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