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Re: Quick question on Tokimi's route...(huge spoilers)

Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:02 pm
by teiglin
ABC123 wrote:
teiglin wrote:I don't quite understand why people are hung up on the fact that Shun isn't forgotten. He never leaves the world, so people in Phantasmagoria don't forget him. I'm not denying there are many apparent plot holes and just plain confusion around time, Eternals, and memories, but this one at least seems nominally consistent with the basic explanation that Eternals are forgotten when they leave the world.
Because according to Tokimi becoming an Eternal with cause people forget the said person but Shun wasn't forgotten. Takios and Temuorin is also an Eternal and they weren't forgotten by Yuuto or Aselia so its not consistent at all. Its highly possible Tokimi isn't the only one lying too.

Since 99% of the things are not properly explained nothing is consistent.
You didn't even read what I wrote. The explanation Tokimi (I think it was Tokimi, anyway) gives is that eternals are forgotten when they leave the world, which Shun never does; bringing up a straw man doesn't change that. Yes, you'd think Yuuto and Aselia would have forgotten Takios and Temuorin in Aselia route--that just struck me as something the authors overlooked. Like I said, there is no lack of plot holes, but Shun follows the "official line" to a T.

Of course, if I'm misremembering what Tokimi said, or if she gave another equally-specific but contradictory explanation, let me know.

Re: Quick question on Tokimi's route...(huge spoilers)

Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 4:18 pm
by YamiLeto
teiglin wrote:
ABC123 wrote:
teiglin wrote:I don't quite understand why people are hung up on the fact that Shun isn't forgotten. He never leaves the world, so people in Phantasmagoria don't forget him. I'm not denying there are many apparent plot holes and just plain confusion around time, Eternals, and memories, but this one at least seems nominally consistent with the basic explanation that Eternals are forgotten when they leave the world.
Because according to Tokimi becoming an Eternal with cause people forget the said person but Shun wasn't forgotten. Takios and Temuorin is also an Eternal and they weren't forgotten by Yuuto or Aselia so its not consistent at all. Its highly possible Tokimi isn't the only one lying too.

Since 99% of the things are not properly explained nothing is consistent.
You didn't even read what I wrote. The explanation Tokimi (I think it was Tokimi, anyway) gives is that eternals are forgotten when they leave the world, which Shun never does; bringing up a straw man doesn't change that. Yes, you'd think Yuuto and Aselia would have forgotten Takios and Temuorin in Aselia route--that just struck me as something the authors overlooked. Like I said, there is no lack of plot holes, but Shun follows the "official line" to a T.

Of course, if I'm misremembering what Tokimi said, or if she gave another equally-specific but contradictory explanation, let me know.
Shun is actually the reason we know Tokimi is lying. There are two ways to be forgotten supposedly one is to become an eternal and the other is to leave the current world. However since Shun isn't forgotten we know that Tokimi is lying about the eternals are forgotten right away when the become eternal. In fact I kinda want to look at the way that's worded later to see if she was just refering to Yuuto rather than all eternals......but yeah it's the gate for the labyrinth of time that wipes initially otherwise the eternal must leave the world. Do gotta admit I wish Yuuto in some path would test these things and figure out what Tokimi has lied about......

Re: Quick question on Tokimi's route...(huge spoilers)

Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 9:42 pm
by ABC123
You didn't even read what I wrote. The explanation Tokimi (I think it was Tokimi, anyway) gives is that eternals are forgotten when they leave the world, which Shun never does; bringing up a straw man doesn't change that. Yes, you'd think Yuuto and Aselia would have forgotten Takios and Temuorin in Aselia route--that just struck me as something the authors overlooked. Like I said, there is no lack of plot holes, but Shun follows the "official line" to a T.

Of course, if I'm misremembering what Tokimi said, or if she gave another equally-specific but contradictory explanation, let me know.
And you didn't even think about what I was talking about. First there are inconsistencies about the rule "Eternals are forgotten when they leave the world" Takios and Termuorin was not forgotten (If your just going to say because authors just overlooked no one will be convinced) and the rule that "Eternals are erased from humanity (Forgotten by all except other Eternals) when they become an Eternal" this was not the case for Shun. Based on this inconsistency Tokimi is probably lying and because she is lying its entirely possible that there could be different reason why they are forgotten. Since there isn't any detailed explanation everything is up to speculations.

Re: Quick question on Tokimi's route...(huge spoilers)

Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 10:49 pm
by teiglin
Maybe this my misunderstanding then, but I read Tokimi telling Yuuto that *he* will be forgotten if he chooses to become an Eternal [because he must leave the world to do so], and the "Eternals are forgotten when the leave a world" to be a more general case. If Tokimi actually made the sweeping claim that EVERYONE is immediately forgotten when they become an Eternal, then I just don't remember seeing it--I suppose it's possible that I simply read around that seeing as it's so obviously not true.

Re: Quick question on Tokimi's route...(huge spoilers)

Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 10:53 pm
by YamiLeto
teiglin wrote:Maybe this my misunderstanding then, but I read Tokimi telling Yuuto that *he* will be forgotten if he chooses to become an Eternal [because he must leave the world to do so], and the "Eternals are forgotten when the leave a world" to be a more general case. If Tokimi actually made the sweeping claim that EVERYONE is immediately forgotten when they become an Eternal, then I just don't remember seeing it--I suppose it's possible that I simply read around that seeing as it's so obviously not true.
That actually sounds like a good theory but if that was the case then it sounds like Tokimi would have no reason to rewind time when Yuuto comes back as an eternal.....after all Temurouin and Takios should have still been there and if nothing else Shun was.

Re: Quick question on Tokimi's route...(huge spoilers)

Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 2:03 am
by ABC123
teiglin wrote:Maybe this my misunderstanding then, but I read Tokimi telling Yuuto that *he* will be forgotten if he chooses to become an Eternal [because he must leave the world to do so], and the "Eternals are forgotten when the leave a world" to be a more general case. If Tokimi actually made the sweeping claim that EVERYONE is immediately forgotten when they become an Eternal, then I just don't remember seeing it--I suppose it's possible that I simply read around that seeing as it's so obviously not true.
Tokimi clearly said in all routes that becoming an Eternal will cause people to forget about you. And only reason why they had to go there is to get the sword. When Yuuto asked Wisdom why he was there he said because it is a good place to relax. Also Yuuto left Phantasmagoria as human to get obtain the sword and returned as an Eternal. He didn't leave Phantasmagoria until his job was done. It also dubious to say leaving the world affects every world because Tokimi wasn't forgotten by Yuuto when she left Hyperia(?) and arrived at Phantasmagoria.

The game loves to contradict itself. :roll:

Re: Quick question on Tokimi's route...(huge spoilers)

Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 2:37 am
by YamiLeto
Can we just agree that Tokimi is a liar and not ever quote her again? We're all just stating the same crap over and over in different forms and threads that all happen to be based on what a liar seems to be saying.

Re: Quick question on Tokimi's route...(huge spoilers)

Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 4:28 am
by Strike-Zero
On the subject of Shun... Tokimi does state that Shun DIDN'T become an Eternal himself, rather his body (which was completely taken over by his sword) became an Eternal. Note that Oath CHANGED to World at the same time. Plus he didn't leave the world, just relocated himself.... Furthermore, touching the gate in the Labyrinth of Time IS what causes a person's existence to be wiped from non-Eternals.... And Shun (his body anyways) never touched it, or for that matter, didn't even leave the world.

So technically speaking, if an Eternal touched it by mistake, it'd affect them AGAIN, thus rendering time rewinding useless if that happens. This is lightly mentioned in a easily miss-able phrasing (during the scene at the gate).... Which means the person/thing at fault in this case is Wisdom, since he was BORED.... remember, Eternals and Eternity Swords aren't affected by memory changes themselves (its everyone else)....

As a result, if a mortal FAILED to become an Eternal after touching the gate, they're well... doomed. Since they have nothing left, literally. This is also mentioned in a completely different way... I just rephrased it in my own words.

And Eternals being forgotten when they leave a world CAN be undone through rewinding time, which is done by Tokimi, otherwise it would have complicated matters. But the gate's effect blocks any tampering by rewinding time of those affected.... which supports the above statement, since if Tokimi had accidentally came into contact with the gate, rewinding time would NOT reverse HER being forgotten due to leaving the world.

Oh and in regards to him remembering her despite him being in a DIFFERENT world than her (for most of the game/story), note that HE left his world (abit forced and not willingly), while she was STILL in his (or rather their) world. And since she came to the SAME world as him, he is NOT affected in the least. Of course this applies to the other three as well.

So technically it IS possible to remember an Eternal if you're one-step-ahead of them in leaving the world. But if they EVER leave the world you're in BEFORE you, you WILL forget them completely. (Well except if someone is kind enough to undo the wipe when said Eternal you knew is in the same world as you again).

Its pretty consistent throughout the various routes if you take all of the above into account, and not generalize Yuuto's case for EVERY Eternal. The below makes sense and runs off the previous statement in one-upping Eternals.
Well actually, what happened was:
-Yuuto and Aselia leave Phantasmagoria
-Takios and Temuorin leave Phantasmagoria so everybody in Phantasmagoria forgets them
-Yuuto and Aselia return to Phantasmagoria
-Takios and Temuorin return to Phantasmagoria so everybody in Hyperia forgets them.
-Thus, the conclusion is that Yuuto+Aselia did not forget them
And.... thus its safe to say that, if you end up in a world that the Eternal (that you know, of course) doesn't come into, you'll remember them until they end up and leave the world you're in. Or if they touch the gate in the Labyrinth of Time. So basically the memory erasure CAN be averted/subverted, while alterations caused by the gate, is NOT undo-able/stop-able if you touch it at all (Eternal/Eternity Sword/Mortals/etc.)

Edit: And for the record, she tries to outright avoid what she doesn't want to answer (note the bath scene..., on her route of course) or simply speaks very very vaguely about it, or if that's not possible, generalizes it, or else (abuses) her power to evade the question altogether (the aforementioned bath scene is an example of the last one). For best results in dragging answers that Tokimi's that vague about, or avoids, Temuorin is quite effective at that....

So technically/literally she's not a liar, just very difficult to get certain information out of her, but still highly possible. Oh and... she can't fully predict what will happen in regards to Eternals, but can narrow it down based off what she knows, so it is possible to take a wrecking ball and shock/surprise her. Or if she's distracted it'll have the same effect... ditto if she's not thinking straight at the time.

In which, its quite amusing to consider her as a manipulating woman towards Yuuto. Its rather he's... an idiot, since Tokimi DID explain her power to him... yet Yuuto fails to realize the faults in her power (or the abusive potential). And some of Tokimi's actions are as a direct result of taking Yuuto's NEARLY guaranteed responses into account (then and there at the time of course), which is why its easy to say she's a manipulating woman... since she has no ill will towards him... except some parts of his personality (aka thick-headed-ness towards those attracted to him), that result in drastic action (aka the 'eligibility' part). Note, I am not saying she isn't a manipulating woman, just not one in the negative context.

Re: Quick question on Tokimi's route...(huge spoilers)

Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 4:38 am
by YamiLeto
Why do I suddenly think of Magic the Gathering and thinking something like the gate is an uninterruptable spell while you can counter spell world leaving? xD But in all seriousness though it sure seemed like Takios and Temu left Hyperia BEFORE Aselia and Yuuto left. Unless you got some evidence that says otherwise. I honestly think the whole leaving a world thing is another of Tokimi's multiple lies.....

Re: Quick question on Tokimi's route...(huge spoilers)

Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 5:26 am
by myrtas
Man i cant remember the text that says if an eternal leaves a world people will forget about them, but i can confirm this:
Takios and Temu left Hyperia BEFORE Aselia and Yuuto left
That is most certainly correct. Just recently finished Aselia route and i remember that. Toum created a "gate" right then and there in the classroom and left the world (presumebly Hyperia, though it is still unclear wheather the world Yuoto came from is indeed the legendary Hyperia in the sky/heaven) with Takios.