Just finished it and...(Spoilers...obviously)

Discuss the Tears to Tiara translation.
Mkilbride
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Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 1:05 am

Just finished it and...(Spoilers...obviously)

Postby Mkilbride » Thu Jan 08, 2009 10:49 pm

What exactly was resolved? I mean, alot is left unresolved. It feels like alot more was supposed to be added...but wasn't.

They defeated the Empire, that's true, but the Empire wasn't the main enemy, and that was made PAINFULLY obvious in a bajillion cutscenes.

All they managed to do is stop the Empire, and yes, they now have their own Kingdom...

They defeated the Divine Tank...but uhm...all the other Angels? I"m just confused.

I know that supposedly they won the first war in Pywll's time, but they came back again, and it couldn't just be ONE lone Angel?


Also, I must have missed it, but the bodies were just for that Garden?(It seemed like a seriously huge issue when Ogam and Arawn discussed it, but in the end, that seems VERY minor) Also, we never fought Necroms again...kind of disappointing.


I mean, I loved this this game, the combat wasn't bad, the story an epic scale...


It just feels like...they left so much open, so that if they wanted to revisit it or something, they'd have grounds to work on. Still, it pisses me off they're all triumphant at the end, when nothing but a small part of the full task was accomplished. Also, is the main religion in this game Mormonism? Let's have many wives!!! Wee. I know Kings used to have many wives, but it really destroys any romantic aspect in this game. It's not like Utawre, when it seemed like the time spent with the other girls was unavoidable...this one pretty much said "I'ma have a bunch of wifes, screw em all, and pretend like I love any of them"

90% of the woman in his "harem", didn't have any VALID reasons to love him.


Overall, it's got a syndrome that many games these days have. They start off fantastic, get even better, but then it becomes to fantastic to even really.

Not to mention, when they bring back someone who was supposed to make a noble gesture, such as dying for a great cause, it really ruins the entire effect for me, personally.

My main issue is it feels like the ending is...just not an ending.

Overall, thanks for translating this, it's another VN on my list to "Recommend" to people that they HAVE to play.

Geburah san
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Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:28 am

Re: Just finished it and...(Spoilers...obviously)

Postby Geburah san » Fri Jan 09, 2009 3:33 pm

Yes aside the wives issue, the ending is in my opinion too rushed and leaves too much things in the air: 10 angels doing nothing since 1000 years ago, Watos doing absolutely nothing during the entire game and even if the Empire has lost his Emperor the Senate should be able to govern instead him (is like the old Rome so they would even be pleased with his death). In the end many major and minor issues are left unattended like if some part of the game was cut off

In any case was a great game, a shame that the ending doesnt do proper justice

Mkilbride
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 1:05 am

Re: Just finished it and...(Spoilers...obviously)

Postby Mkilbride » Fri Jan 09, 2009 7:11 pm

Right? Killing an Emperor in a Gov. Like the Empires...accomplishes almost nothing. Sure, it'll make the new guy abit scared, but that's it!


Like said, those Angels...absolutely nothing being done by them, and the Empire is still just as strong as they ever were...

I mean sure, they accomplished a nice little tid bit, but that's it. They still have many, many issues bigger than the Empire concerning them. It just pisses me off...cause well, if they aren't planning a sequel or Expansion pack.(It did say "Our Journey is over...for now", but still, that'd be so ugh.

Mauzel
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Re: Just finished it and...(Spoilers...obviously)

Postby Mauzel » Thu Jan 15, 2009 6:26 pm

Well, since the entire series is of welsh myth, and in the reality history, most of england was overtaken by the romans and later the saxons.
So I guess they are hoping for a bit of understanding for the real history. (Pwyll, Riannon, Arawn, Llyr, Taliesin are all part of the welsh myth. While Gaius, Octavia(n) are more of the roman counterpart.) I wont bother to comment on the landform similarities and the basis for the names. But since it has basis (which kinda make the game a "reality" portrayal of a myth, ie. the reasons behind a legend, kind of thing.), the kingdom is bound to fall...;p
I guess if they continue on... everyone should start dying (Morgan kills Authur, Saxon invasion... Norman invasion... and alot more)... If they destroy the empire altogether, then the game would lose the "reality" incorporation and will fully become a "parallel universe" type story.
But I definitely could do with a few inverse invasion (Happy ending is good, but invasions are fun... even if the protagonists are on the losing side...;p)

Phlebas
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Re: Just finished it and...(Spoilers...obviously)

Postby Phlebas » Thu Jan 15, 2009 7:00 pm

Just a few points on the more opaque characters, I'm pretty sure Morgan is based on Morrigan, the Irish goddess of battle and slaughter, rather than Morgan le Fay (can't really see any similarities in the character). Also, Octavia would probably be Octavia Minor, the great-niece of Gaius (!) - although her half-sister Octavia Maior is also possible - the description on her named weapon is the best hint at her backgrounds you get.

One should also note that this is very loosely based on a mix of myth and history from a range of several centuries (Julius Caesar and Arthur?), and the outcome already deviates from world history (death of Gaius before he becomes Caesar), so if you want to continue from here there's really no telling how the world would end up, I think it's justified to say Rome's historical influence comes to an end a few centuries early. And if you want to continue from there, really it's easy to speculate that after managing to ward off the Roman invasion, the Anglo-saxon invasion will never take place as it's a direct consequence of the fall of Rome after Britain's romanization, when the legions which were then the sole military in Britain left the island.
Image Napolitan.... Rush!!

Mauzel
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Re: Just finished it and...(Spoilers...obviously)

Postby Mauzel » Fri Jan 16, 2009 2:27 am

Btw, what exactly does the name of the game signify? Tears to Tiara... does it means the whole story is about riannon's tear and then riannon's queenhood? T.T... The tiara part is baffling...

Phlebas
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Re: Just finished it and...(Spoilers...obviously)

Postby Phlebas » Fri Jan 16, 2009 11:16 am

Haven't really thought about it much, to start with the name is syntactically awkward. But there are two points to it: I'm thinking the tiara part refers to primula's wreath (compare to description on 'tiara' (the helmet) - Primula Wreath exists as an item as well but I've never had it drop; description: "Tiara made from Primula flowers"). So it's probably just a vague allusion to the hidden past.

But as for the name itself, that's the name of Ermin's picture book which depicts Arawn's heroic deeds and is presumably the record left about him for the future generations. You can see the name of the book on the cover in the final scene.
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Trissskette
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Re: Just finished it and...(Spoilers...obviously)

Postby Trissskette » Sun Jan 17, 2010 9:28 am

Just finished it, and apparently on the 1st anniversary of this thread too :p

Mkilbride wrote:What exactly was resolved? I mean, alot is left unresolved. It feels like alot more was supposed to be added...but wasn't.
They defeated the Empire, that's true, but the Empire wasn't the main enemy, and that was made PAINFULLY obvious in a bajillion cutscenes.
All they managed to do is stop the Empire, and yes, they now have their own Kingdom...
They defeated the Divine Tank...but uhm...all the other Angels? I"m just confused.
I know that supposedly they won the first war in Pywll's time, but they came back again, and it couldn't just be ONE lone Angel?

I wasn't quite clear on that point; I thought the Divine Tank wasn't even one of the angels, just a weapon? But yeah, I agree with your points. Arawn & co. pretty much just gave the 12 a poke in the eye... that can't be the end. Since the story confirms they went all out genocidal armageddon on the previous ages (Gold, Silver, Bronze), it is highly unlikely and unrealistic they'd just lie low after this. When Lector gets his crap back together I don't think it'll be more than a year or so until the 12 start moving in to actively take care of Arawn & co.

As you said... this is hardly an ending. More like just the end of one battle in a far larger war.

Mkilbride wrote:Also, I must have missed it, but the bodies were just for that Garden?(It seemed like a seriously huge issue when Ogam and Arawn discussed it, but in the end, that seems VERY minor) Also, we never fought Necroms again...kind of disappointing.

Agreed, wtf is the deal with the Necroms? Kinda crap the endgame was just regular undead.

Mkilbride wrote:I mean, I loved this this game, the combat wasn't bad, the story an epic scale...
It just feels like...they left so much open, so that if they wanted to revisit it or something, they'd have grounds to work on. Still, it pisses me off they're all triumphant at the end, when nothing but a small part of the full task was accomplished.

Yeah, pretty much what I felt too.

Mkilbride wrote:Also, is the main religion in this game Mormonism? Let's have many wives!!! Wee. I know Kings used to have many wives, but it really destroys any romantic aspect in this game. It's not like Utawre, when it seemed like the time spent with the other girls was unavoidable...this one pretty much said "I'ma have a bunch of wifes, screw em all, and pretend like I love any of them"
90% of the woman in his "harem", didn't have any VALID reasons to love him.

I've never really enjoyed harem endings either because they're usually way out unbelievable. TTT's relationships didn't really grab me either, it felt more like playing an RPG where you get all the girls simply by talking to everyone and unlocking all the dialog. "Real" VNs (imo at least) are those which force you to make decisions and choose which girl to pursue. For me this game felt more like merely a regular RPG but with some h-scenes thrown in. And personally, I wasn't really a fan of the girls except Octavia. It's mostly the art, I suppose. I guess if this was a Zyx game I'd be complaining less :p

Mkilbride wrote:
Not to mention, when they bring back someone who was supposed to make a noble gesture, such as dying for a great cause, it really ruins the entire effect for me, personally.

While the scenario was disappointing, I didn't really hate that character for coming back :p This usually ties in with games that go for unrealistic "everybody lives happily ever after" kind of endings, though. Which, unfortunately, is what TTT looks like.

I wonder if there's ever going to be a sequel, although I don't really hold much hope for one.

newsblade
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Re: Just finished it and...(Spoilers...obviously)

Postby newsblade » Mon May 09, 2011 6:54 pm

Mkilbride wrote:Yes aside the wives issue, the ending is in my opinion too rushed and leaves too much things in the air: 10 angels doing nothing since 1000 years ago, Watos doing absolutely nothing during the entire game

I always thought that Watos was Myrddin... not only because of game references, but because of the relation of the myths.

Myrddin is Merlin from the Arthurian legend (I think nobody doubts this). There are some theories and books that say that Myrddin/Merlin was the god Apollo. Apollo, as you know, is the Greek god of the sun.

Also, according to the Greek geographer Hecateus of Abdera, who wrote around 330BCE, identifies the god worshipped at Stonehenge as Apollo. In Tears to Tiara, Myrddin sword (Dyrnwyn or "White-Hilt", latter called Excalibur) is sheathed in Stonehenge as well.

Watos is the Sun (ex: Watos' symbol is the Sun, as depicted in a mural in Arawn's tomb).

But, even if we didn't know that... In the game, Caer Myrddin is precisely positioned were the sun sets (in other words, Myrddin's tomb is placed where the sun dies). The legend even tells that "the red sunset is the tears of a god", the god Myrddin. Arawn also tells us that "he [Myrddin] will be with us forever... warming the world."

Myrddin was the god that provide heat and fire to humankind. He was punished by the other gods/angels until became dissolved into the atmosphere. Watos is continually doing the same thing, providing warm fire. I think Myrddin was Watos in "human" form, without knowing (he was, he would be) and, when he died, he return to his original self. Somewhat like Jesus, although that would apply more to Aarawn since he is the son of god/watos/Myrddin and is even called Lucifer, the mourning star, as Jesus was called in Apocalypse/Revelation 22:16.

... Btw Lucifer, is also a name applied to Satan (which fits perfectly in him as a fallen angel, and, as a "daemon lord", title given by humans). If Aarawn is akaboshi-sama, why wouldn't Myrddin would be another star (called sun)?

In any case, you cannot say Watos has done nothing. It was Watos that created Lucifer, to stop tyranny... coincidently that was also Myrddin's plan...


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